Jeg kender ikke yngletidspunktet på dette sted, for denne art,men med det friske gullige vingebånd og det let dunede udseende, ville jeg mene at der her var tale om en ung fugl.
Og ikke en adult hun ,der på dette tidspunkt burde være ret slidt i dragten.
Kan det være rigtigt Michael?.
Hilsen Palle
NY art?
Lysende blåt og sort som en australsk Fairy-Wren...
Som før: Hvorfor ikke anføre, at det festlige lyseblå
egl. er Hvidt ?
Tak, SILAS ............ C.
Ny art?
Nej, men som du ved, Carsten, så er farver relative efter øjet der ser og de omstændigheder, hvorunder en farve ses. Således er dette billedet taget meget tidligt om morgenen på en vestskråning af Aladaglar-bjergene, hvorfor fuglen ses i skygge - hvilket igen betyder at hvidt ikke fremstår helt hvidt etc... Lad det hermed være sagt: Hvis denne fugl var fotograferet i flot solskin ville ryggen fremstå hvid og ikke blålig eller lysgrå som på billedet :-)
SiO
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Beskrivelse: Er det en hvidrygget- eller en middelhavsstenpikker?
Det kunne godt ligne en ungfugl - måske en hun.
Jeg har ingen erfaring med hvidrygget, da denne ville være min første. Den er temmelig grå på ryggen med lidt brunt indslag.
Jeg har kun dette billede og så den ikke flyve.
Hej Lars,
Tillykke med den nye art og det gode foto af en juvenil Hvidrygget Stenpikker.
Juvenil pga. uldne kropsfjer uden bistråler, superfriske vinger og hale, samt gul mundvig.
En adult hun (eller 2k) ville være helt nedslidt i primo juni.
En juvenil Middelhavs ville være mere gulbrun (ikke så grå) på ryggen, have mere sorte store vingedækfjer med stærkt kontrasterende lyse bræmmer, have en lidt længere hånd og et mere spinkelt næb.
English:
Fine photo of a Finsch's Wheatear in pure juvenile plumage.
The photographer asks if it could be a (juvenile) Black-eared Wheatear, but this species is safely ruled out because of too grey back and too white underparts.
Futhermore the greater coverts are too pale and uniform. The wingtips are slightly too short and the bill too strong.
A Black-eared would be much more buffish in general colour with darker greater coverts with more sharply defined pale edges.
Regards
Peter
Beskrivelse: Denne sorte stenpikker er rapporteret som "Basaltstenpikker" - den sjældne og meget lidt udbredte sorte form af Klippestenpikker, der findes ved mørk basalt i S Syrien og N Jordan.
Eftersom Basaltstenpikker er dårligt kendt ville det være fint med kommentarer fra stenpikker-kyndige, for at udelukke f.eks. mørk fase af Orientstenpikker Oenanthe picata.
Fuglen danner par med Hvidrygget Stenpikker hun, og findes ved at køre ad vej 400 mellem Birezik og Sanliurfa. I Sanliurfas udkant peger et skilt med en gazelle mod syd - tag denne vej 7.5 km.
This black wheatear was reported as "Basalt Wheatear" - the poorly known and very range-restricted so-called black morph of Mourning Wheatear from black soil in S Syria and N Jordan.
As Basalt Wheatear is a poorly known form, I hope for comments from birders confidential with this form and other black wheatears from the Middle East. Could this bird be idenfifyed safely from the dark morph of Eastern Pied Wheatear (Oenanthe picata). The primaries showed pale in innerwebs, but according to the few aviable illustrations of Basalt Wheatear, the pale areas should possibly be more extensive?
The bird is paired with a female Finch´s Wheatear and present for some days. Directions: take road 400 between Birezik and Sanliurfa. in the outskris of Sanliurfa look for a brown sign with a gazelle. Turn south along dirt roas towards gazelle area and look for the wheatear 7.5 km from road 400.
Jeg vover lige et lille indspark:
Hånden ser ikke så lys ud på dette billede (men måske mere lys på andre fotos: http://thebarleybird-er.blogspot.com/2011/05/interesting-wheatear-in-south-eastern.html). Jeg går ud fra, det er samme fugl (?).
Og burde Klippe-/Basaltstenpikker ikke have mørke spidser på håndsvingfjerene? (mindt så meget som ses på P4 i højre vinge). Og lysere hånddækfjer?
Og hvad med vingeformlen - ser det ikke også ud til at P3=P4=P5 ? Det taler vel imod Klippestenpikker. Men OK, det kræver nok yderligere fotos at forvisse sig om.
Mere om Basaltstenpikker: http://www.andrewsi.freeserve.co.uk/article-wheatear.htm
Her nævnes det samtidig, at bedste kendetegn til adskillelse fra Eastern Pied (=Variable Wheatear = O. picata) fra Basalt er: "They (Basalt) differ from Eastern Pied Wheatear in wing pattern in flight, fewer primary emarginations* (Cramp, 1988) and more extensive black on the undertail (see Clement, 1987)".
* "Fewer primary emarginations" vil her sige højst 2.
mvh
TLP
Hej Klaus.
Mit indtryk af Orientstenpikker, er en mere slank fugl, som bruger det meste af sin tid oppe i træerne. Det virker som om den har en levevis mere som en Rødstjert.
Helt enig med Henrik. Glem 'Orientekspressen'.....
Syntes at den virker lidt for langnæbbet til lugens, og den savner jo aldeles det diagnostiske hvide 'flash' på hånd og arm!
Eksperter bedes kaste lys over bestemmelsen af denne mystiske fugl.
mvh.
Peter
English:
Expert opinions wanted on this odd bird....
Hi Peter and Henrik,
KMO notes that the bird "showed pale in innerwebs (of primaries), but according to the few aviable illustrations of Basalt Wheatear, the pale areas should possibly be more extensive".
In the Basalt Wheatear-article (my 2nd link above) it is mentioned that the pale remex bases in Basalt is "much less extensive than in Mourning". Could this contribute in any way?
As Peter mentions, the bill seems not quite right (too long) for Mourning (lugens).
Might KMO or EVH have any pictures where the number of emarginations on the outer web of the primaries can be seen? (OK, I know this is very optimistic and would require really good photos, but anyway...).
That Eastern Pied (Variable) normally sticks to trees (as Henrik mentions) can't really rule out that possibility.
Peter seems certain that Eastern Pied is nonsense. Is that based on any plumage characters? (sorry for asking, but I don't know Eastern Pied, but got the impression that the two species are quite similar).
I must emphasize that I cannot identify this bird but I find it interesting, and hope that my contributions are not annoying.
TLP
Troels,
Sorry, I should have been more elaborate.
I would guess Eastern Pied highly unlikely to breed in central Turkey (with a Finsch's wheatear!), but geografics aside, I perceive Eastern Pied as having the legs set quite differently compared to most other Wheatear-species.
They seem to come out from a more central point of the body, and they appear somewhat short as well.
Furthermore the tail seems rather long, thus creating a wing/tail ratio which is different from, say, Mourning, Finch's and Northern.
Peter
It would be interesting to know if a (hitherto?) unknown black morph of Finch's Wheatear is a possibility, since the rare black morph of Mourning Wheatear from the Middle East, is dependent(?) of a specific habitat, and is frankly not a likely candidate for breeding in Turkey.
Peter
Klaus,
Thanks for showing these images of an most intriguing bird.
From your comments I take it that the id. is not yet 'carved in basalt'.....what is your thoughts, and do you have photos showing whether the wingtips reach the black of the tail (as in lugens)or not(as in Finschii)?
How was its size compared to the female Finsch's it was seen with, and how does the suggestion of a dark morph Eastern Pied (picata) fit your(?) experience with said species ?
Peter
Jan,
I still don't see why this is a Variable. It simply does not look like one due to several discrepencies already mentioned.
Henrik is spot on with the Redstart comparison (I am aware that he solely refers to its habits), but if applied to the look of its legs (size and placements),they are certainly more Redstart-like than the very 'classic' Oenanthe captured here.
The thought of a Variable paired with a Finsch's so far away from the formers range, is IMO distinctly odd, so I look forward to see a coming photo here on Netfugl (from Eva Foss Henriksen) showing the pair together.
After having read the different discussions you so kindly linked to, I have a feeling that general concensus is hard to reach in this case................
Peter
Beskrivelse: Denne sorte stenpikker er rapporteret som "Basaltstenpikker" - den sjældne og meget lidt udbredte sorte form af Klippestenpikker, der findes ved mørk basalt i S Syrien og N Jordan.
Eftersom Basaltstenpikker er dårligt kendt ville det være fint med kommentarer fra stenpikker-kyndige, for at udelukke f.eks. mørk fase af Orientstenpikker Oenanthe picata.
Fuglen danner par med Hvidrygget Stenpikker hun, og findes ved at køre ad vej 400 mellem Birezik og Sanliurfa. I Sanliurfas udkant peger et skilt med en gazelle mod syd - tag denne vej 7.5 km.
This black wheatear was reported as "Basalt Wheatear" - the poorly known and very range-restricted so-called black morph of Mourning Wheatear from black soil in S Syria and N Jordan.
As Basalt Wheatear is a poorly known form, I hope for comments from birders confidential with this form and other black wheatears from the Middle East. Could this bird be idenfifyed safely from the dark morph of Eastern Pied Wheatear (Oenanthe picata). The primaries showed pale in innerwebs, but according to the few aviable illustrations of Basalt Wheatear, the pale areas should possibly be more extensive?
The bird is paired with a female Finch´s Wheatear and present for some days. Directions: take road 400 between Birezik and Sanliurfa. in the outskris of Sanliurfa look for a brown sign with a gazelle. Turn south along dirt roas towards gazelle area and look for the wheatear 7.5 km from road 400.
Klaus,
The jizz is not good for lugens, which I perceive as less robust with a finer bill and proportionately larger eye.
Furthermore the primary-projection seems too short although hard to establish clearly on this photo due the wing position.
"Could this bird be identified safely from the dark morph of Eastern Pied Wheatear (O. picata)?"
I would say it definitely can, since O.picata has an altogether different stance with shorter legs positioned more to front of the body. It also has a finer bill and a slightly longer tail.
Both the 'basalt' (lugens), and the dark morph Eastern Pied (picata) are extremely unlikely to occur (breeding!) in Turkey.
The photos taken by you and E.F.H. all point to the obvious conclusion:
An abberantly coloured 'melanistic', or hitherto undescribed 'black morph' of Finsch's Wheatear (O. finschii).
Had the bird been 'leucistic' or 'diluted', I trust the id. had been pretty straightforward.
The fact that no all-black Wheatear-species occur in Turkey, probably set the pulse racing in the folks who initially found it, and by a stroke of "MEGA-fever" propelled them to write a report announcing a new species for the country!
Once more, congratulations with contributing to a brand new chapter of Wheatear identification!
Peter
Oh - wheatears, how little we know about some of them! Not meaning that Peter is incorrect and so on.
Therefore - just to mention - I wondered about this
First I was exited by Tim´s answer until I read Guy´s answer. Pitty indeed!
JanJ
Following the discussions, on not at least Eva Foss Henriksen photoes, showing size and jizz identical the the female Finch´s, I have changed the name - which do not mean that ID comments stille are welcomed
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Det ligner IKKE en lugens.
Den mangler fuldstændig de lyse YDER- såvel som INDERfaner på hånd-og armsvingfjer, der giver dette specielle 'flash' hos den flyvende fugl.
Hvad skulle den iøvrigt så langt hjemmefra:-)?
Den anden sorte fugl set i Tyrkiet blev da vist heller ikke endeligt bestemt.
Orientstenpikker er IMO HELT ude i hampen, både udseende og udbredelse taget i betragtning.
Fuglen her var parret med en hun Hvidrygget (finschii), og da billedet er taget midt i denne arts udbredelsesområde, hvad er der så til hinder for at det kan være en (endnu?) ikke beskrevet mørk form af denne?
Er der billeder der viser om den sammenfoldede vingespids slutter inden eller efter det hvide på halen?
Se FIF, nye udgave side 286.
Mvh.
Peter
ps blev sangen hørt og hvis ja hvilken art lød den da som?
Mon Netfugl iflg. debatten vil flytte dette foto hen under Hvidrygget Stenpikker tilsvarende KMOs fotos af samme fugl ,samt ændre undertitlen fra ” Basalt Wheatear?” til ”black morph”.
Considering the discussion of the bird a request of changing the phototitle from oenanthe lugens basalt wheatear to oenanthe finschii black morph.
Mvh Eva
Beskrivelse: Sandsynligvis den Hvidryggede Stenpikker hun,som den mørke mulige Basalt stenpikker dannede par med.Holdt til i det samme lille stenområde som hannen.
Possibly the Finsch`s Wheatear female,the dark Basalt(?)-male paired with in Kizilkuyu,occurring in the same,limited stony area as the dark male.
Mon Netfugl iflg.debatten vil flytte dette foto hen under Hvidrygget Stenpikker tilsvarende KMOs fotos af samme fugl ,samt ændre undertitlen fra ” Basalt Wheatear?” til ”black morph”.
Considering the discussion of the bird a request of changing the phototitle from oenanthe lugens basalt wheatear to oenanthe finschii black morph.
Mvh Eva
Titel: Possible male Basalt Wheatear - size comparison with a male Finsch's Wheatear ?
Beskrivelse: Hvidrygget Stenpikker hun og den mørke Kizilkuyu-han,fotograferet på samme sten fra samme afstand.
Finsch`s Wheatear female and the dark Kizilkuyu male,photographed on the same stone from the same distance.
Mvh Eva
Et historisk foto!
Tillykke med et (sandsynligt) FØRSTE fund af MØRK form af Hvidrygget Stenpikker.
Klippestenpikker (og dermed 'basalt' formen) er en lidt mindre og finere bygget stenpikker med et forholdmæssigt større øje og spinklere næb.
Orientstenpikker er ligeledes af anderledes udseende, blandt andet er den mere lavbenet.
Begge nævnte arter har deres udbredelse ( 'Basalt' en begrænset sådan), langt fra fundstedet, og deres anderledes habitat, sang og genetik, ville formodentlig forhindre pardannelse (og yngel?) med Hvidrygget Stenpikker.
Intet under at disse to fugle faldt for hinanden!
English:
This fine photo strongly suggests the possibility of the existence of a (hitherto?) undescribed dark morph of Finsch's Wheatear! (or at least the occurence of a single atypically coloured 'melanistic' individual)
The photo clearly shows the similarity in size and structure between the two indiviuals, thus offering a sensible explanation of the discrepencies between the dark bird and the (IMO, unlikely) other candidates mentioned in the relevant dicussions: O.picata and O.lugens.
Thanks to Eva Foss Henriksen and Klaus Malling Olsen for sharing photos of this exciting record!
Peter
Peter.
As I am rather unavare of the fetures described here for the various mentioned wheatear sp, I was curious to know what other people might have to say. So, moving this to Surfbirds forum inviting more people to se and hopefully make some good suggestions. I wonder what Yoav and others would say to the suggestions made her about the possibility of a malanistic Finch´s, althogh Alan (on the SBF) suggest the possibility. Interesting indeed!
JanJ
Jan,
Good idea to see if the good folks on the SBF can come up with any original thoughts:-)
To make things clear: It's no surprise to me that Alan on the 1. of June suggests the possibility of an abberant Finch's.
After all he probably read what was posted by you from Netfugl on the ´31.st of May:
"It would be interesting to know if a (hitherto?) unknown black morph of Finch's Wheatear is a possibility, since the rare black morph of Mourning Wheatear from the Middle East, is dependent(?) of a specific habitat, and is frankly not a likely candidate for breeding in Turkey.
Peter"
Yoav then redicules this, IMO, pretty obvious suggestion, but he does come up with an intelligent thought: the different species of Wheatear each have their individual song.....BRAVO!
Jan,
Thanks for the link. These people are certainly fast to pull the trigger!
How on earth can they with such certainty establish that it is a lugens, when so many things point to finschii?
The mere thought of finding a rare morph of a species which hasn't even been recorded in Turkey in it's regular form is pretty imaginative, particularly when the intruder is cheeky enough to knock up an attractive female of an entirely different species!
Common sense aside, here are some particulars:
1. The primary-projection in too short for lugens.
2. The second primary is too short relative to the third for lugens (whereas it appears to fit finschii perfectly).
3. The wings lack the 'magpie-flash' of lugens.
4. The tail projects further from the tip of the primaries than would be expected in a lugens.
5. Eye too small, and bill to strong for lugens.
6. Legs are longer than those of lugens.
7. As can be seen from the above photo, the dark bird is a spitting image (structurally and proportion-wise) of its mate, which certainly wouldn't be the case were it really a lugens.
Thanks for contributing with so links, Jan....
Peter
Mon Netfugl iflg.debatten vil flytte dette foto hen under Hvidrygget Stenpikker tilsvarende KMOs fotos af samme fugl ,samt ændre undertitlen fra ” Basalt Wheatear?” til ”black morph,size comparison?”.
Considering the discussion of the bird a request of changing the phototitle from oenanthe lugens basalt wheatear to oenanthe finschii black morph.
Mvh Eva
I den seneste Bulletin of the British Ornithologists' Club (Vol 132 (4): 226-235) skriver Hadoram Shirihai en artikel om israelske fund af Basalt Stenpikker. Afslutningsvist i artiklen beskrives dette fund i Tyrkiet som en 2k han af Basalt Stenpikker (Oenanthe lugens warriae). Dragt, vingeformel og sang anføres som karaktererne, der viser, at det ikke er en Hvidrygget Stenpikker i en hidtil ukendt sort fase. Den tyrkiske fugl hybridiserede med succes med en hun af Hvidrygget Stenpikker. Dette anføres som ikke helt overraskende, da lugens-komplekset (som warriae er en del af) og Hvidrygget (O.finchii) er genetisk nært beslægtede.
Der kendes pt. 6 fund af Basalt Stenpikker i Israel, hvilket omfatter to fund, der tidligere har været godkendt som hhv. Sørgestenpikker (O.leucura) og Variable Wheatear (O.picata opistoleuca). Begge arter er nu taget af den israelske liste.
Basalt Stenpikkeren yngler alene i en basaltørken på grænsen mellem Jordan og Syrien.
Tak Uffe for den overraskende meddelelse.
Skal ikke lægge skjul på at jeg finder Hadoram Shirihai's bestemmelse af den tyrkiske fugl overfladisk, og slet ikke sandsynliggjort, endsige bevist.
Ingen DNA, ingen offentliggjorte stemmeoptagelse m.m.
Udseendet af fuglen på Eva's billeder gør at jeg undres. H.S. er jo en ornitologisk autoritet i den tunge klasse.
Men som de siger ovre vestpå:
"It's not over till the fat lady sings.."
Tak Jan,
Kunne ikke lige ved et hurtigt gennemsyn finde omtalen af ovenstående tyrkiske fugl (som Uffe givetvis gengiver korrekt), men selve artiklen, som jo går ud på at give basaltformen racestatus, virker gennemarbejdet og grundig.
At H.S. så ikke studser over at fuglen på nærværende foto slet ikke ligner en O.lugens mht. jizz, størrelse og proportioner, men snarere en nøjagtig kopi af dens mage, en Hvidrygget Stenpikker, finder jeg derfor såre mærkværdigt.
At artiklen understreger warriae-formens tætte tilknytning til den sorte basaltørken, gør nærværende ynglefund fra en geografisk fjern lokalitet, og ganske anden habitat, til stærkt afvigende fra det kendte mønster.
Mit håb er naturligvis at der igen vil blive fundet lignende fugle i Tyrkiet, og at disse så ville kunne blive undersøgt nøjere. Stemmeoptagelser, indfangning til blodprøve-og måltagning osv.
Glædelig jul!
Det er forståeligt, at Peter ikke kan finde omtalen af det tyrkiske fund i det link, som Jan angiver. Jan henviser til H.Shirihais grundige artikel med den formelle beskrivelse at Basalt Stenpikkeren, mens jeg refererer til hans nyeste artikel om de israelske fund og det ene tyrkiske. Jeg har ikke en direkte link heril.
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